Probably one of the most common leaks in a home is a leaking sink drain. So yes, that awful mess under your kitchen sink or, vanity where the wood is all funky and rotted isn’t just happening at your home. You aren’t the only home that has some kind of pan sitting under there catching drips. Have you ever had the drain pipes under the sink just fall apart when you bump them putting something away under the sink? I have seen amazing ways off propping up drain pipes to prevent them from coming apart. Sometimes it’s a worn out or, rotted out pipe causing the problem but, most of the time it is just a bad installation. Not just DIYer’s handyman work is responsible for these leaks and loose drains, quite a few plumbers aren’t very good at installing tubular drains either. I will tell you some of the most common errors people make when hooking up tubular drains under a sink and how to avoid them so that your drain has no leaks and won’t fall apart if you look at it wrong.
Cross Sectional Drawing of a Slip Joint Connection
To have a good drain installation you must first start with quality materials. This is not a debate about tubular plastic or, tubular brass as both are good materials and will serve you well. Instead it is to tell you about products often cleverly marketed as easy to use that are pure junk, if these parts are used will be the Achilles Heel of your drain. The infamous flex pipe or, flex trap which looks like and accordion and can be stretched or bent into various configurations is one of these products to avoid. Another is the flexible rubber trap with the two hose clamps that secure it in place. The flex connectors have a problem where debris can be caught in the accordion folds and give off horrible odors if used between the water seal of the p-trap and the sink drain. The problem with flexible connectors is the drain is connected rigidly at the sink drain and where the p-trap wall outlet connects at the wall, the pipes in between should have solid connections giving each piece of tubing used solid support from the two sides. This support is what makes the drain strong so it doesn’t fall apart. The flexible rubber traps also have a tendency to kink when not lined up well enough also. If you use either of these products your drain installation is doomed from the start, there is no substitute for doing it right.
Another common mistake is mixing components between plastic and metal. It is acceptable to transition from metal tubular to plastic tubular at a slip joint connection I try to avoid it except in the case of using metal basket strainer assemblies and metal lavatory sink pop-up assembles then transitioning to plastic tubular. I consider metal sink drain assemblies to be a superior choice over plastic. A rule of thumb I usually follow is if the drain is hidden in a cabinet or vanity I use plastic tubular and if a drain is exposed like on a wall hung sink or, pedestal lavatory sink I use chrome plated brass tubular or whatever other finish is desired. This is only for cost and appearance in these cases. The plastic pipe is inexpensive and is very durable when properly installed. While the plated brass costs much more than plastic but has the looks you want to see on an exposed drain. The problems come when people mix parts such as metal nuts on plastic threads and plastic nuts on metal threads, this often results in damaged threads and a loose connection that leaks. Another common mistake I have seen is mixing components of a part. P-traps come in two parts, the bend and the wall outlet. Where the two pieces of the p-trap connect different methods of sealing are used for brass and plastic. Plastic p-traps use a bevel connection and the chrome ones use a rubber washer held in place with a flange compressing against a flat surface. If you combine these 2 different ways of sealing it will leak.
Slip Joint Nuts L to R Chrome Plated Brass, Plastic, Zinc
Zinc slip joint nuts are another commonly sold item that should be avoided. In theory they should be fine to use but the reality is even the smallest amount of leakage will turn into a big leak when the zinc slip joint nut corrodes and falls apart. It will not be the simple matter of tightening the connection like a brass nut often would be. The brass tube may have to be replaced as well if the zinc slip joint nut will not come off the brass. Stick with using brass or chrome plated brass slip joint nuts on tubular brass they are vastly superior to the zinc slip joint nuts.
Slip Joint Washers L to R Poly, 1 1/4" X 1 1/2" Poly, Rubber
The slip joint connections should not be installed with Teflon tape or, thread sealant. The actual sealing is done by the slip joint washer. The washer is compressed into a bevel by the slip joint nut. This seals it against the tube and the slip joint hub and it also grips the tube holding it in position. If any thread sealant was to get in this area it could serve as a lubricant allowing the joint to slip apart. Some thread sealants may also have an adverse effect on the plastic. My personal preference is to use the plastic poly slip joint washers on plastic tubular and to use rubber slip joint washers on the tubular brass. I feel that rubber grips the chrome plated tubular brass much better than the poly slip joint washers holding the connection in place better so things don’t fall apart. Slip joint nuts if they are plastic should be hand tight with just a little extra with a pair of channel locks, metal slip joint nuts should be tightened enough that the connection locks in place and doesn’t slide.
This next part is the Holy Grail of putting a tubular drain together. Granted the tips I gave above are important, but, if you are not going to do this part right you might as well do everything wrong. Without getting this part right you will have leaks and or, a drain that falls apart. It is absolutely critical that the tubes are cut long enough so that they almost bottom out in the hub and all the tubes should come together in a relaxed state. What I mean by a relaxed state is that there is no bending needed to make the parts stay together. The connections should almost want to stay together even if the slip joint nut was not tight. Only by having all the tubes cut to the proper lengths and having everything plumb can this be accomplished.
The best way to get the connections right is to use the fact that the p-trap is the part that can move virtually anywhere. By varying the wall outlet length and swiveling the p-trap you have quite a range of motion. Start at the wall and make sure the trap can be aimed at where the drain from the sink is going to land. You can use a bend coming out of the wall to aim the drain in the right direction if needed. I usually put the trap in its approximate place coming out of the wall first leaving the trap loose enough to swivel. The connections at the wall and the sink are rigid and the variable is moving the trap so I want to work from both the wall and the sink towards the trap. After getting the trap roughly in place I start at the sink and work down to the trap. Using the trap set in place as a guide to get lengths of the tube cut correctly. I want them to have the maximum insertion into every hub without bottoming out. If the tube bottoms out it is too long and may stress another connection. If a tube is short and barely into the hub the support the tube gets from the hub will be lacking, there will be flexing at that joint and it may come apart or leak. If there are any horizontal tubes like in the case of a double bowl kitchen sink I like to have them up as high as possible, this maximizes under sink storage and lessens the probability of damage occurring. When I get all the tubes in place coming down to the p-trap, I cut the tube to the proper length for the slip joint connection to the trap. I then take apart the trap swivel connection and put the trap in place loosely. I then work on the trap height and the wall outlet length so the beveled swivel connection stays together without any stress. I then put on the swivel connection nut and tighten all the connections. When you put the drain together in this manner the drain wants to stay together and even with vibration from a disposer and an occasional knock, the drain remains together and leak free.
If you have any questions or need additional information please post a comment and I will reply.
I dropped the P-trap on my bathroom sink to free a clog a snake wouldn’t
clear. As I try to reassemble the metal P-Trap, I find it impossible to get the nut
nearest to the wall (on short side of trap) to thread. It simply will not take. I’ve
tested it with another nut when it’s not attached to the sink, so I know the threads
are OK. It just seems like the gasket is keeping it too far away. Any suggestions?
Hi Ken,
As long as you are certain the alignment of the 2 sections is okay…
And that the washer is between the 2 sections of tube and not under the nut…
Usually the washer (gasket) fits on the wall outlet tube, it has a flange the gasket goes on.
Some gaskets are thicker than others and some nuts are shallower than others.
You may need a different nut or washer.
Hope this helps you out…
Let me know!
Hello,
Great site here, lots of helpful information.
I have just installed a pedestal sink and new P-Trap. The sink drain is plastic and the P-Trap is a Slip Joint made of metal with ploy washers. What I would like to know is can I over tighten this connection? I tightened it as much as I dared and it still has water back up and out of the top when the sink was filled and drained.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Shane
Hi Shane,
I’m wondering if you have the proper washer in there.
The sink drain is 1 1/4″ and the P-trap can be either 1 1/4″ or 1 1/2″.
If you have a 1 1/2″ P-trap there is an extra thick washer that is used.
Hello Redwood,
Thank you for posting a reply!
Both the Drain and P-Trap are 1 1/4″ I just pulled the fitting off of the drain to make sure I had the Ring in the right way and it is, so I’ll try making the connection a little tighter and see if that helps.
Thanks again!
Shane
Shane,
Try tightening it more.
Those pedestal sinks are tough to get in there and get nuts tight.
Also check to make sure that the water leakage is not coming from higher up.
A lot of people get fooled by that.
I’m damned if I can get a slipjoint under my kitchen sink to grip. Last night I found it had come apart and I went and bought a new washer, tightened it back on and it slipped off again. Arrrrr! It’s a brass extension to an ABS Y fitting (dishwasher). No threads on the extension tube.
Craig,
Can you e-mail a digital picture of the drain pipes under the sink to me at info411plumb@gmail.com ?
Redwood
Thanks for replying quickly, Redwood. Unfortunately I don’t have a digital camera.
In posting here I rethought the problem and figured it was schmutz on the pipe. I cleaned off any offending material to allow the washer to grip. No joy. sigh. I can tighten the abs ring tight and it WILL grip but only until there’s a vibration or anything then it lets go. It’s like there’s a ¼ turn unavailable to me.
I’ve ended up doing a redneck fix, found something that’s a perfect fit for under the P trap that keeps the whole assembly up. It’s not right but it’s sufficient. No leaks and I even ran the dishwasher this morning without drama.
Thanks again for the attempted help.
Craig,
Okay I finally got what you are saying. The dishwasher tailpiece is chrome plated brass and the ABS slip joint below is having trouble gripping on the tailpiece. I would get rid of the metal tailpiece and stick with plastic. One like this will directly onto the basket strainer. http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull.asp?catId=68&parCat=781&pid=2181&ref=2
This is a helpful page, although a bit scary for me. I am having a really tough time with 3 of my 4 sinks leaking after having new ones installed. On one sink, the sink drain is too far away (laterally) from the pipe coming out of the wall, so none of the ptraps can actually reach it, even if I swivel the ptrap through a complete arc — simply impossible. I ended up trying the flexible according ptrap that you have condemned, and now it fits, but it’s still leaking. Maybe on that one I just need to tighten up everything a little more.
On the other sink, it’s leaking from the drain seal that is sandwiched between the bottom of the bowl and the washer and nut. Frustrating!
And on the last sink, I am getting leaks because not everything is totall plumb. The ptrap wall outlet’s bend radius is too large, and the drain is laterally too close to the wall outlet. If I rotate the ptrap around to the point where it is in line with the wall outlet, I can’t actually get it to work because the ptrap wall outlet’s bend interferes with the wall outlet (i.e. it can’t go in far enough). I’ve seen other wall outlets that I can try that have more like a 90deg bend, instead of a rounded one.
Do you have any suggestions for me here? The only reason why the 4th sink isn’t leaking is because I haven’t installed anything yet.
Hi Dave,
The first sink you could use an extension tube to provide the extra length.
I usually buy the extra long double ones and cut to length ending up with one for later. They come in handy.
http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull.asp?catId=68&parCat=757&pid=2097&ref=2
The second one sounds like its a lavatory sink. Many times the leak you describe is caused by water leaking down through the threads on the pop up assembly where the rubber mack washer contacts the pop up assembly. Loosen the nut and slide the rubber washer down then coat the threads where they will be covered by the mack washer with Teflon paste such as Rectorseal T+2.
The last one is pretty easy. Just put an elbow at the wall so the wall outlet tube misses the drain pipe and you then have room to work with. naturally an elbow solidly connected at the wall and slip joint for the p-trap outlet would be best but something like this will work as well. http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull.asp?catId=68&parCat=784&pid=2188&ref=2
I sometimes even have had the p-trap come towards the front of the sink to connect to the outlet tube and then go back towards the wall..
Hope that helps you out! If you have additional questions or comments post back.
Digital pictures can be e-mailed to info411plumb@gmail.com they are often very helpful in understanding whats wrong and frequently I draw the solution on them so you know what I’m saying.
Thanks for visiting 411Plumb,
Redwood
Thank you for the quick advice, Redwood!
All sinks are actually bathroom sinks. I’ve simply tightened up the nuts on the first sink (with the accordion ptrap) and it’s not leaking anymore. If I’m only using the last part of the accordion (the rest are collapsed), do you think it’s still an issue with trapping nasty stuff in the folds? Anyhow, an extension tube on the ptrap outlet won’t help, because the wall outlet is simply too far away. Do they make ptraps that are wider than the “standard” size?
I’ll pick up the Teflon paste tomorrow, thanks! Hopefully, that will fix sink #2.
As far as sink #3 goes, I think I understand what you are saying. I will look around for a couple of 45deg bends to jog the wall outlet over a little bit, and hopefully that will do the trick. I also hope that it won’t mess up something in another dimension and require more pieces!
Dave,
If you have the flex trap in place and not leaking you are in pretty good shape.
It’s really a preference thing because I know that any drain can be put together without using one, it’s just a question of putting together the right components. The accordion folds above the water line of the trap can accumulate a build up of slime and debris that will have odors. If it is the difference between getting the job done for you and not getting it done than a man has got to do what a man has got to do…
Redwood
Hi there-
This is some great information… I’m having a similar problem with the P-trap and wall outlet problem. The tailpiece is too close to the wall outlet and the PTrap won’t fit properly. They won’t line up. We bought flexible pipe but now see that this is not a good practice. We’re having leaking issues (probably from the slip joint where it’s going from a 1 1/4″ tailpiece to 1 1/2″ P Trap) and are going to try a higher quality slip joint washer to see if that resolves our issue. Lots of paste and teflon tape have already been used.
As far as your elbows are concerned, how do you connect them to the P Trap from the wall? Do you have a diagram of what you’re talking about?
Thank you so much in advance! We need to fix these leaks as quickly as we can.
Hi Leslie,
I would clean off all the Teflon paste and tape for starters then carefully inspect the tapered portion of the slip joint where the tapered portion of the slip joint washer rests when tightened for cracks from over tightening. A sure fire indicator of a crack is the more you tighten the nut the worse the leak gets. Teflon paste makes it too easy to over tighten the slip joint nut and crack the plastic.
As far as offsetting the drain to allow easy match up a plumber would probably cut off the wall connection and add a bend to facilitate a better line up. How to do it in your home I can’t say without seeing it and knowing the materials involved. If you can e-mail a picture to me at info411plumb@gmail.com I’d be happy to look at it and offer advice. options available in tubular include double offset tubes which can be cut as needed, and slip joint elbows. These are available in both plastic and chrome plated brass. Sometimes cutting the pipe and using a Fernco drain and trap connector can help although I’d prefer other options more.
Thanks for commenting and I hope this helps you,
Redwood
Hi Leslie and Jason,
Thanks for e-mailing the picture.
I’m afraid I don’t have very good news for you.
The drain coming out of the wall is much to high to work with and it needs to be moved lower for that sink and vanity to work.
You have installed the flex trap backwards in an effort to make it work and created an ultra deep trap.
Moving the pipe may be fairly easy or, a bit difficult.
Can you remove the drain where it goes into the wall and find out if the pipe in the wall is vertical or horizontal?
It should go in a short distance then either connect to a vertical or horizontal pipe.
If it’s vertical it’s not too hard to change.
Also if you can tell me what the pipe in the wall is made of or describe it I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Redwood
Hi Redwood-
Again, thanks so much for the reply. Before we saw your post, we worked for a little while tonight and managed to get the sinks working with no leaks. (Will check again tomorrow to make sure that is still the case). Anyhow, that being said… I’m a little nervous to take things apart if it’s working. That being said, if this is a terrible design that is sure to blow up on us later, I don’t want that either. If it’s “working”, would you still recommend that we make major modifications? Or will it be ok as is? I appreciate your thoughts!!
Leslie
*Update- I checked again this morning and both sinks (that have been fitted the same way) are still without leaks. Still want to make sure that I do the right thing, though. If I’m headed for disaster, I’ll try to figure something out… although I don’t want to disconnect anything if I don’t have to since I’m currently “leak-free”. I really appreciate your help!
Leslie
Well, the drain still ended up leaking, even with the accordion ptrap. I guess I’ll do the same thing on this sink as the other one — I’ll have to pick up a couple of 45deg elbows and move the drain pipe so the ptrap will line up.
Sounds like a plan
Is there any fix for the leakage between the slip join washer and the upper tube (the gray one on the diagram?)
Hi Lisa,
Generally a leak there is cured by having close to the maximum overlap of the joint,
and using a poly washer on plastic tubing or, a rubber washer ob chrome plated brass tubing.
Also many times people are mistaken where the actual leak is and water is running down from above.
Hopefully this helps you out,
Redwood
Help!
I have a leaky sink. From reading the above blogs, I feel my R side drain pipe in my kitchen sink, may be too short. I am talking about the vertical plastic pipe that fits into the drain pipe, also plastic. I have a plastic slip joint nut and a poly slip joint washer. Is there an adhesive to help the pipes stay securely held together??
thanks!
Hi Rebecca,
Sorry to hear you have a leaking sink.
The slip joints should overlap like in the picture above with the inside tube nearly completely inserted into the socket of the slip joint. The Tubing should also fit together in a manner where there is no stress or pulling on the joint so the joint stays together even when the slip joint nut is not tightened. When you say the words “right hand sink” it says to me that you are using a end outlet or center outlet continuous waste drain and these typically do not have a long overlap on the slip joint connection either from the sink or, disposer tailpiece into the waste arm or, into the side of the tee, and when not fitted properly they will pull apart quite easily.
I would not recommend using any adhesive product but rather buy whatever new tubes are needed and trim them to fit properly to fix the drain. I’m not sure exactly where the problem is from your comments but I suspect it is where the sink tailpiece meets the 90-degree elbow of the arm that goes over to the tee. The parts you may need to fix it may include a new tailpiece which can be cut to the proper length or, using an extension tube which also would require trimming to length. If the arm is too short I would recommend a new waste bend rather than an extension.
I hope this helps you out in your mission to cure the leaking sink. If you need more help please e-mail a digital photo to me at info411plumb@gmail.com and I’ll post it into the comments where we can continue the discussion. I ask that any discussion remain in the comments so that others can benefit from the knowledge.
Hello Redwood,
I just finished installing a pedestal sink, and things were going very smoothly until I noticed a slight leak. The drain is leaking at the sink where the rubber washer/gasket meets the drain opening. I have tried both tightening and loosening the locknut to no avail. The flange is connected tightly to the drain body and sealed to the sink using plumbers putty, so I don’t think the leak is being caused by water gaining entry inside the sink… seems to be in the drain body itself (between the drain pipe and rubber seal). Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated!
Morgan
Hi Morgan,
Pull the pop-up assembly back apart and this time when you put it back together coat the threads where the rubber washer will land with Teflon Paste such as Rectorseal T+2. the water is leaking down the threads under the washer.
That problem gets a lot of people even some plumbers…
Hope that helps you out,
Redwood
Thanks! It worked… only to find the fittings at the joints now leaking…. urghh!! They already have a washer in them, so I’m not sure what else to do.
Hi Morgan,
Glad to hear that the “plumbers secret” cured the leaking Pop up assembly.
I don’t know why they don’t write better instructions for those.
The leaking joints may be just needing a little more tightening or, the connection angle may need some improvement. I like to have any one connection when the nut is removed sit right in place without pulling apart. so the nut just tightens the connection and does not force it into place or hold it in place.
Another possibility is if you are using the plastic or poly slip joint washers on a chromed brass drain tubing in which case I would switch to rubber washers.
Are you using a 1 1/2″ p-trap or, a 1 1/4″ p-trap?
Is it leaking where the p-trap attaches to the tailpiece of the pop up assembly?
Where is it leaking?
A digital picture may be helpful if you can e-mail one to me at info411plumb@gmail.com
Hi Redwood,
This is some great information! Very useful.
I have been having a ton of trouble with a leak under the kitchen sink. The leak is at tail end of discharge pipe of the garbage disposal. There is a slip nut which connects the discharge pipe to a small black threaded plastic pipe. I found the washer pretty much disintegrated. I bought a new set of slip nut and washer kit from home depot. However, when I tighten the slip nut, the washer just pops out. It is quite flimsy and I can easily force it out of the slip nut (I hope this is making sense).
I made another trip to HD and got all the washers they had there. Now I have a 1 1/2 – 1 1/4 washer as well as a 1 1/2 flange washer. I tried to assemble with the first washer and realized that it’s too small for the discharge pipe. I haven’t tried the flange washer yet. I am frustrated enough at this point to just give up and call a plumber.
My question to you is, why is the washer(poly) getting displaced when I tighten? If I don’t tighten it, water keeps leaking. Is there a brand you recommend? (I have the Dearborn Brass slip nut and washers, Chinese make) The funny thing is, I have done this before and didn’t have anywhere near this much trouble.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Phil
Hi Phil,
I’m going to take a swag on this one and guess that the the piece you are putting the new slip joint washer and nut onto has a small crack that opens as you tighten the nut and washer. It’s the kind of thing that the more you tighten the connection the worse the leak gets, until things pop out of place.
Other possibilities include angular misalignment or, incorrect parts for the application.
If you could e-mail me a digital picture I’d like to see this installation myself.
Redwood
Hi Redwood,
Just sent you an email with a picture attached.
Thanks!
Hi Phil,
That is a very unusual disposer drain hook up. Is the stub coming out of the disposer secured in place with a metal clamp that has 2 screws securing it to the disposer?
If it is I would just buy a new disposer elbow and replace it.
Redwood
Hi Redwood,
Thanks for your reply.
I cant quite see how the stub is attached to the disposer. I will take a look ASAP. However, I have more information that explains why the washer is popping out under pressure. The stub is 1.4 inches in diameter (~13/32). When I put it on the stub, it is quite loose and there is enough space for it pop out.
Hopefully, I can replace the stub easily.
Phil
Hi Redwood,
I took the unit off and it’s a Waste King ss5000 model. The stub seems built into the unit. As I saw no way to fix my problem, I just replaced it with a new ISE. The new one is much quiter and more importantly, no leaks. Installed it in less than 2 hours too.
Thanks for your advice.
Hi Redwood,
I just found this site this afternoon, and it looks like a keeper.
I just had a vanity sink pop-up drain stop working because the pivot rod came loose from the ball. I went to Lowes and bought a new “universal” pivot rod with 3 sizes of balls, and 2 different gaskets. When I removed my almost 8-year old pivot rod assembly, there was no gasket, so when I assembled the new rod, I also applied no gasket (“gasket”, in this case being a nylon peice like a normal gasket, except with a partial cone at the end). Not applying the gasket was a no brainer since the retaining nut did not have enough threads to house both the ball and gasket.
When I first installed it, it would leak when I filled the sink and released it. I then put Teflon tape around the retainer nut threads, and the leak was much less. I managed to see that the leak was coming not from the retainer nut threads, but from the back of the retainer nut, where the ball sits.
I would appreciate any information you can provide as to how to solve this.
Thanks in advance,
Kevin
HI Kevin,
Usually the gasket goes in before the ball rod.
I’m a skeptic on universal parts, usually they leak.
Is this a plastic pop up assembly?
Redwood
Man, you’re a fast responder! You asked if was a plastic pop-up assembly, and I’m not sure how to answer. The pop-up itself, is the original Moen plastic with a metallic cover. The universal pivot arm replacement came with a brass pivot arm (threaded on both ends), and the 3 balls were gray plastic-like material (kind of looks like the gray pipe they used to use about 10 years ago) as opposed to the original ball that appeared to be nylon. I too am skeptical of “universal”, as the the balls were about 1/16″ small, and 1/16″ large that I had to choose from. I chose the larger one, which seemed to fit the same as the original. Like I said in the original reply, there was no gasket in the original installation, and the nut was not deep enough to accomodate one. I predict that you’re going to recommend a new tailpiece assembly, but what I’ve seen so far do not look any better than what I started out with, and less than the universal replacement. Don’t know if I mentioned it, but this house is less than 8 years old, although the water here in AZ is pretty bad on pipes and fixtures.
Scuse me! … I said 1/16″ smaller and larger, but I meant 1/32″… was using a construction caliper and forgot the precision. Anyway, I figured 8 years had probably worn away a 32nd of an inch of the original.
Sorry for the flurry of answers… just took the pivot rod out of the other sink… master bedroom sinks separated by about 6 to 8 feet, and the condition there appears to be about the same as was the case in the first sink: the ball rod does not have a gasket, appears to be nylon, and is disintegrating from the backside, with rust stains evident. The original pivot rods are chrome plated (probably steel, cheap), but as I said before, I’ve not seen anything better. Maybe you can steer me to a better manufacturer, or maybe I should just get a water softener. Thanks for your comments.
Hi Kevin,
I condensed your comments into one.
If I was you I’d call Moen at 1-800-BUY-MOEN and tell them what you have.
I believe their lifetime guarantee would extend to these parts as well.
Free parts is a good thing.
I have found them to be very good to deal with.
Redwood
Redwood,
Thanks for the reply, and if you don’t mind one more question… (at least for the short term)
I had already come to grips with, what I thought was a probability, that the tailpieces were not Moen, but just something genaric that the plumbers used. Could you give me some idea of how probable it is that the tailpieces are Moen, so when I call, I can feel sort of confident that I’m asking for what I’m entitled to and not just fishing for freebies? I’ve asked Moen for all sorts of replacements over the 8 years, and expect to ask for more, so I’d like to be kind of sure.
Hi Kevin,
You could visit Moen’s website and find your faucet on it. Their website is very well set up and easy to navigate.
Just get to their home page and hover your mouse over “Parts & Filters” then select “Find Replacement Parts” they ask a series of easy questions and next thing you know there are a few product pictures to select from. When you view the parts diagram you should be able to see if your pop up assembly is a match.
If it isn’t that’s okay too they don’t cost all that much for a complete new one.
If you do end up having to buy a new one I would make sure you get a chrome plated brass one or brass in whatever finish you have. I really don’t care much for plastic pop up assemblies.
Any other questions don’t hesitate I’ve got plenty of answers,
Redwood
Hi Redwood,
I have a new undermount ceramic Kohler sink and have had tried two different pop up drain assemblies and cannot get either to seal at the base of the sink. I have tried teflon tape on the threads to no avail and tightening but I am afraid of breaking the ceramic. How fragile are these sinks? It may be leaking under the threads, but to me it seems to be between the rubber washer and the sink, between the sink and the washer. The sink has no obvious cracks but I cannot say if the opening is truly circular but it looks so. Is the rubber washer supposed to form a face seal as well as a lip seal? There is nearly 1/8 of an inch before it will make a face seal. Will pipe thread sealant do the trick or must it be the teflon paste you mention? Could the sink be bad or is that so unlikely? This thing really leaks, it just runs down the tailpiece! Thanks for your insight.
Dustin
Hi Dustin,
Can you send a pic to info411plumb@gmail.com?
I’m not understanding what you are saying about the tightening.
Is there 1/8″ loose when the nut runs out of thread?
Redwood
If you can believe it, I don’t have a digital camera to send a picture. However, these are standard drain assemblies one plastic and one brass. The plastic was a Kohler Forte model with only a triangular cross section rubber gasket without a friction washer and a plastic tightening nut. I had thought because there is no friction washer I could not get enough force to adequately seal the gasket so I tried a different manufacturer with an all metal assembly. The other is a Danze Parma model with an all brass assembly with a traditional cross section semi-circular shaped rubber gasket, a plastic/teflon friction washer and a brass tightening nut that can be tightened way more than the Kohler plastic one. Yet the Kohler design sealed better in hindsight. It appears in both cases that the primary rubber gasket in either case is pressed to a hard stop into the sink opening when the nut is tightened, but the seal is pretty much ineffective. We like the Danze faucet better so we will stick with that metal drain assembly. Today I will have to see if I can get some of this teflon paste you talk about to add to the threads. I put teflon tape on all threaded joints but this does not seem to help. I do not have the “feel” of a plumber to know how tight is tight enough but it seems pretty tight to me and I do not want to crack the sink, hence my concern over how fragile these things are. There is a small cock to the assembly relative to the sink which looks similar to the thread pitch and the gasket should be self aligning so I do not think it is misaligned. I will let you know after I try the teflon paste solution, but it may take a day or so…
Thanks,
Dustin
Hi Dustin,
I would use the metal one and underneath only apply teflon paste on the threads where the rubber mack washer lands when it is tightened. You do not need to tighten this joint very much just enough to compress the rubber masher against the sink. Yes, sinks can crack if overtightened. The teflon paste seals the threads where the rubber washer cannot compress into and stops the leaks.
Redwood
Redwood,
I learned two things: The teflon paste makes a difference for the threads and the rubber washer must be tightened up high enough to produce a face seal against the sink bottom as well. The sinks are strong enough to take the load so I was able to gain some of the plumber’s feel and experience. The teflon paste lubricates and so I did not sense as much torque in tightening the nut, so mission accomplished! It is surprising that the instructions for these drain assemblies do not help if it just does not go together perfectly the first time. They must be written by plumbers intent on maintaining job security. I guess one can’t blame them to much nowadays. Anyways thanks for your site it was a help.
Dustin
Hi Dustin,
Don’t blame us plumbers for writing the directions!
You are now more qualified to write the directions than the English Major that wrote them.
You are absolutely correct the the Teflon paste lubricates as well as seals.
It makes all the difference in a successful installation.
I’m glad you had success and 411plumb could help,
Redwood
Ok, I now feel like I’m becoming a pain. Nevertheless. I’m going to stretch this out a little more, in the totally odd case that you can help further.
I went to Moen, as you suggested, a site I was fairly familiar with. I looked at their parts, and I looked at the sheets I had printed out several years ago. Neither listed tailpieces as Moen parts or accessories. So I went to Ace Hardware and bought a new pivot rod assembly. The size of the ball was correct, it had 2 gaskets, which nobody was able to tell me what the second gasket was for, or where it was supposed to go, and I tried it. First I tried it with a gasket on both sides, but the lead in gasket didn’t fit. Then with only one gasket toward the rear, it fit, but almost instantly leaked water through the hole in the retainer nut.
So why am I being a lazy horse’s arse about this, and not replacing the tailpieces (although they aren’t that cheap as you said… about $30 apiece), you must be asking.
The reason is that when I bought the house, the fixtures were Moen colors sateen… well that’s sufficient. The drain flange and stopper were also sateen. It took a few years to realize that the drain flange was just a sateen cover piece that was basically caulked to a chrome flange, and the stopper top was a cover over a piece of plastice that screwed into the bottom of the plastic pop-up assembly.
So I’m still trying to stay with sateen, so I don’t have to change all the fixtures, and I’m concerned that new tailpieces might not have the correct flange sizes to take the stupid sateen covers. Hopefully, this has been entertaining in some fashion. I think my way out of this is go back to the chrome flanges and figure a way to revert to chrome fixtures.
I did note on the Moen site, that sateen, and a plethora of other colors they used to offer, are no longer available. I don’t know where that leaves others like me, but I’m sure it’s not in a good place long term.
Hi Kevin,
On yours the gasket would go in first then the ball rod then probably just the nut or maybe the other gasket then the nut.
There is probably a gasket that needs to be dug out of the connection.
If this doesn’t work I’m nearly certain you need a new one.
Redwood
Hi, I’ve gone through similar problems yesterday after having someone from work do some tile work and install a new vanity. In retrospect, should have had them replace the piping entirely as it was leaky when they connected it (at the top but not when holding water, just running) then discovered in looking at that problem, that the top of the flex-pipe would flush a bunch of water when the water in the bowl was released. I know the guys replaced a section with that flex pipe, don’t think it had one there already.
So, took the entire thing apart and the wall pipe was a bit gunked up so maybe it contributed to the backup, decided to replace the entire thing, including the pop-up assembly. Got the “best” one that Lowe’s had, a metal number, even and got everything installed, using a continous P-trap/flex pipe instead of 2 pieces that were there before and using the 1-1/2″-1-1/4″ reducer (I think they used the old reducer before) and no leaks there when releasing water. I had to bend the lift rod over to meet the ball/rod since the ball/rod was too short. I was also getting some leaks at the sink and reset it with plumber’s putty to no avail and the plumber’s putty didn’t seem to be sticking so well.
Could never get this to stop leaking, so back to Lowe’s for another assembly – this time, I ended up with the cheapest plastic one they had only because it was a) chrome to match the fixtures, b) the ball/rod was app. 7″ instead of 6 so it now mated with the lift rod with no bending – I think that was the source of my leak earlier. I’ve not used this assembly, resetting it with silicone instead of putty on the underside and topside, was able to get a good, smooth adjustment on the lift rod with no stress. Leaving it sit for 24 hours to let the silicone cure and I think it’s going to work now, fingers crossed that it’ll all be good when I get home from work today.
One question, though – what is up with the short ball/rod ? The only universal one I can find (and Lowe’s had it) is a 6″ version and this is too short for the sink we put in. And the only one I found long enoug, out of 6 or 7 assemblies at Lowes, turned out to be the cheapest plastic thing that I wouldn’t want to stress too much.
Hi Del,
Hearing you talk about flex traps brings ugly images into my head and I hope you can find a way to eliminate using any flex parts in the drain for the sink.
My preference for lav sink drains is using a metal pop up assembly an plumbers putty. The putty is only used on the top flange of the drain and provides the seal that keeps the water in the sink basin when the pop up is closed. A bad seal with the plumbers putty would only cause the sink to drain but never would cause a leak underneath.
The seal underneath is made by the rubber mack washer meeting the sink. This connection usually seals quite well. However the washer in many cases cannot get into the threads the nut that tightens the mack washer uses. The solution is to coat the threads where the mack washer lands when the nut is tightened with teflon paste. When you do this you are nearly 100% certain not to have a leak.
The shame is that in using a plastic pop up assembly that you now have a drain that is a little on the fragile side and is disturbed was not able to be tightened as much and is constructed of a weaker material which can crack or break. Using silicone to glue it in while it may work and not have leaks makes future replacement a lot more difficult.
The ball rod length does vary between different manufacturers but the length required also varies with the design of the sink and the distance between the mounting holes for the faucet and the position of the drain. It’s nice when the rod length comes out correct as it makes the job easier but either cutting the rod shorter or, using a rod coupling and rod to extend the rod is not difficult to get the job right either.
Redwood
Redwood, thanks much for the information. Very clear, consise, and helpful. If everything is non-leaky this evening, I’ll probably leave it alone for now and see if I can find a metal pop-up with the right ball/rod length. I don’t remember the mfg of the sink off-hand but have that information at home, so maybe I can find a better quality/fit pop-up at an actual plumbing supply rather than Lowe’s. The one that I got was ~8.50 and really, really, really cheap plastic.
Oh, and I’ll look into replacing that flex-trap with a solid one. It doesn’t seem that hard to line it all up with the right reducers. And when I put it together, I didn’t tighten everything down, just got it all in there, fitting nicely and relaxed as your article suggested and then tightened it down. In retrospect, I think that would have been fine then with a solid piece. I think the guys putting it in just took the easy way out on that one and I should have just replaced that.
Thanks again.-Del
Hi Del.
I wouldn’t do anything with that pop-up until you have a problem with it.
Hopefully you don’t and you don’t have to deal with that RTV Silicone.
Don’t go looking for trouble I was just telling you for future reference and the benefit of others.
Eliminate the flex trap and call it good.
Redwood
Redwood, turns out it was still leaking but it was as you said, the water was coming down the threads under the mack washer. So I pulled that loose and got the silicon out of there, reset everything adding plenty of with the teflon paste to the threads, tightened it down, wiped down the excess paste and now it’s doing fine. Much appreciate the tip on that! I didn’t have the parts on hand to change out the flex pipe but if I have to work on it again and get any parts, I’ll be sure to get rid of that. So far, it’s not causing me any issues (the original flex pipe that was put in was two connections, this one is a long extension built into the trap itself, so there’s only one connection pretty high up, the lower one on the old one was problematic, for sure) -Del
Hi Leslie,
Well no leaks is a good thing!
But, I fear it may be temporary.
The 2 problems I see is the extra deep traps tend to be slow draining and will be more susceptible to building up sludge and clogging, and the added length and extra connections will be more prone to bumps from things stored in the vanity and getting leaks.
Of course that said it could just as easily prove me wrong.
Basically fixing it properly would entail moving the vanity out of the way and cutting into the wall to move the pipes.
If the drain pipe in the wall is vertical it is not too bad and the hole on the wall would be hidden by the vanity.
If the drain pipe is horizontal in the wall then the bathroom wall or the wall in the room behind the bathroom would have to be opened up from the sink drain to wherever the pipe is where it goes vertical. Probably a vent stack behind the toilet if its on the same wall.
Essentially the vertical pipe gets cut and the drain lowered.
Redwood
Hi Leslie,
It sounds like you have dodged the bullet for now and can probably go with the DIYer motto “If it’s not broken don’t fix it.”
But I would maintain a vigilant watch for leaks as long as it is installed like that for any signs of leakage. Small undetected leaks can really do a number on vanities as the materials they are constructed from just swells up and turns to sawdust when kept wet for a long time.
With you now saying there is a second sink no doubt right next to this one my assumption is they tie into a double sink fitting somewhere between the two sinks. to lower the connection would require an opening from sink drain to sink drain in all likelihood. Even if the set up you have now lasts for the long term in the event of a major renovation of the bathroom I would strongly recommend that you consider redoing the drain properly.
Redwood
Thanks, Redwood. Actually, there is a sink right next to it but it didn’t have that problem (due to the position of the wall outlet). The second sink that had the same issue is actually in the guest bathroom. We just did a “major bathroom renovation”, which unfortunately involved expensive granite countertops so taking out those vanities would be a monster, although I reckon’ you could cut a gigantic hole in the back! hah! I wish we had known that this problem would happen or we would have done something different in there or fixed the issue before the countertops were set. Ah, the lessons you learn.
In the meanwhile, I will leave a container underneath the plumbing to catch leaks if they should happen for at least a few weeks. We’ll cross our fingers and hope for the best. If you have any other suggestions for “stabilizing” our rinky-dink set up, let me know! For now, I’ll plan to tip-toe away.
*Sorry for the massive number of comments. I just saw your post from last night (which I didn’t see until now) talking about sludge build up in the deep traps. Assuming that we don’t reconfigure everything, is there a way that I can prevent sludge build up with some sort of regular maintenance? Maintenance is always easier than repair….
The use of a bacteria enzyme type drain maintenance product such as Bio-Clean may help somewhat.
In terms of doing it right you may look towards what is on the other side of the bathroom wall.
Going in from the backside to do the work in many cases proves to be easier in terms of opening and patching the wall.
Your problem is quite common in remodels of the kitchen or bath where the “design consultant” at big blue or, orange box sells the customer a new deeper sink under mounted on granite adding considerable depth to the drain with a no problem we’ll put it all in for you. The only thing is they walk away leaving you with a drain that cannot line up, where with their immense experience if they had informed you of the needed drain height a head of time, the work could have been done before the vanity or, cabinets were installed. They are very consistent in doing this, to their customers.
What is the brand name on that disposer?
Hi Phil,
Did you get one of the Insinkerator Evolution models?
Your Waste King must have been pre 1996 with an outlet like that.
Probably best that you replaced it.
Redwood
Hi Del,
Good to hear the leak has stopped. No leaks is a good thing.
Glad 411Plumb could help,
Redwood